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questing vole
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Posted 3 Years, 1 Month ago Link #1
Hi,

I would like to know - what are the main debates in the argument for the evolution of birds from dinosaurs? What are the main points that generate disagreement?
I am asking this as I am doing a short paper on avian evolution and want to concentrate on the up to date material rather than regurgitate a lot of well picked-over stuff.

Thanks.
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Ceph
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Posted 3 Years, 1 Month ago Link #2
Hi vole.
From what I read on 'The dinosaur mailinglist', these are the main discussion points among the scientists:

What was the origin of flight? Flapping the arms to run faster and jump longer ("ground up" or gliding from tree to tree ("tree down" or maybe something in between?

Who were the first truly flying dinosaurs? Could Archaeopteryx realy fly for instance or only glide? Could Microraptor? Did the last common ancestors of dromaeosaurs, birds, and troodons fly?

When did the perching bird foot arise? Most paleontologists agree that Archaeopteryx didn't have perching feet.

How did the vaned feathers arise among the maniraptors? Oviraptors had vaned feathers, but they don't appear to have descended from flying ancestors, so vaned feathers must have had a function other than being flight feathers. Some say for display (like peacock tails or chicken combs), others suggest that they were useful when brooding over the nest.

When did dinofuzz arise? There is no reason to suggest that T-rex, Allosaurs, or Coelophysis had fuzz. But on the other hand there is nothing to disprove it. Some researchers even suggest that all dinos were more or less fuzzy.
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Ceph
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Posted 3 Years, 1 Month ago Link #3
Sorry. I see now, that wasn't what you asked

Hmm.. there are both some valid and some rather strange debate points in the "are-birds-dinosaurs?" discussion.

Most paleontologists supports the evidence in favor of birds being descended from maniraptors (dinos such as oviraptors, troodons, and dromaeosaurs)

Bird expert Alan Feduccia is among the few scientists who make (more or less) valid points against this. He agrees that birds are archosaurs (and therefore related to dinos, crocks, and pterosaurs) but denies that they are maniraptorian dinosaurs. He believes that dinofuzz on the back and tail of Sinosauopteryx is remains of a lizard-like frill. He claims that the hand bones of birds are different from those in dinosaurs. (a debate about what number to give them and when they arise during fetus development)

Another valid point is that the Archaeopteryx fossils are older (late Jurassic) than most maniraptor fossils (mostly Cretaceous). If Archie' and all other birds are derived maniraptors, there must be a lot of maniraptor fossils waiting to be found in layers older than 150 million years. Only a few maniraptor fossils older that that are known so far.
(Good fossils of small bodied dinos from the Triassic and Jurassic periods are generally rare, so no matter if Fedducia or the rest of the world’s paleontologists are right, we still lack the fossils to show one or the other)

An Italian dinosaur called Scipionyx samniticus is known from one very well preserved fossil of a juvenile. Parts of the internal organs are preserved, but no dino-fuzz. Skippy's closest relatives are believed to be fuzzy, so a great discussion concerns whether this fossil contradicts the dinobird concept. I see no problem since many dead animals loose their hair or feathers when they float around in water. And the anoxic conditions believed to have preserved Skippy's intestines could be different from the conditions outside the body.

One of the strange points against the dino-bird connection concerns a fossil called Protoavis texensis. The paleontologist who found it claims that it is a Triassic non-dinosaurian bird, but the few other scientists who have been allowed to see it, says that it is a 'chimera' - a mixture of bones from different species of animals. And that it is so crushed, that it takes a lot of imagination to claim that it looks like anything.

Other strange claims include, that all of the many, beautiful Chinese fossils of feathered dinosaurs are false.
Some claim that the maniraptors are in fact ancient birds and not dinosaurs. Others claim that Archaeopteryx is a dinosaur, but that real birds are not and are descended from a different lineage.


Also, one problem with your question about "the main points that generate disagreement" is that people who doubt the connection between birds and dinos often cling to just one, individual point and disregard the multitude of evidence in favor.
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questing vole
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Posted 3 Years, 1 Month ago Link #4
Hi Ceph,

Thankyou - this is just the sort of thing I was hoping for; the questions I need to answer and build on.
This isn't my field (I was a chemist) but I'm currently studying genetics and evolution so needed to get to current debates before I could sensibly start.
You seem to have this at your fingertips - do you work in this field? I imagine that there must be a lot of competition to get to work with the more charismatic fossils.
You've been very helpful,
Regards vole
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Ceph
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Posted 3 Years, 1 Month ago Link #5
Hey. Glad it was helpful
Actually I'm a biochemistry student but I've loved dinosaurs since I was 4 years old and I still do. And I might just as well mention my own (unprofessional) view on this.

Namely that the transition into flying dinosaurs (birds) and the fact that they live among us today is one of the most amazing insights paleontology has given us in the last two decades. One after another characteristics that were thought to define birds; feathers, quill knobs, furculas, medullar bones, brooding and parental care, pneumatization, sleeping with the head tucked up behind the elbow, and (perhaps even) flight - all these are now returned to their proper inventors.

Dinos just keep getting cooler
Last Edit: 2009/03/04 15:03 By Ceph.
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